RICHARD GLOVER:

The Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull is on the line, good afternoon.

PRIME MINISTER:

Good afternoon.

RICHARD GLOVER:

You do give a Gonski!

PRIME MINISTER:

I do indeed, Gonski 2.0. This is a big question Richard, you know. We’ve committed, as you know, a substantial increase in funding to schools. We are fulfilling David Gonski’s vision, which was that all Australian school children should receive funding based on their need and it should be consistent across the country. That’s what we’re doing. We’re going to get there by 2027. It will be quite consistent right across the country based on need in terms of Commonwealth funding. It’s a very substantial increase.

So the next question – and this is what David is going to help us answer, this is the big question that parents are asking. Right, we’ve got a lot of money going into schools; why are we not getting better outcomes? Why are we not getting better results? Why are our children not performing as well as they used to, compared to other countries?

RICHARD GLOVER:

Okay are you going into this with a fixed view that there’s something that teachers or the system is doing wrong by our children?

PRIME MINISTER:

No, I have a very open mind, I don’t pretend to be an educational expert by any means. My life was changed by great teachers. I think all of us have had, know the difference between great teachers and good teachers and not so good teachers. But what we need to do is to support great teaching.

I mean Lucy and my daughter Daisy is a teacher. One of the most moving moments in my life was when I was at an airport and a lady came up to me and said: “You’re Daisy’s dad?” I said: “Yes,”. She said “Well you know, your daughter teaches my daughter and she wasn’t very interested in her studies and you know, we were worried about her. Daisy has inspired her, so a light has been switched on and she’s changed.” I was, unusually for me Richard, I was lost for words. You can imagine.

RICHARD GLOVER:

It’s a nice moment.

PRIME MINISTER:

That’s what teachers do.

What we need to do is identify how this additional money that we’re committing, this additional $18.6 billion of Federal money we’re putting in over the next decade, how we can use that. And of course, additional money that states will deploy, how we can use that. That can be used to support better educational outcomes.

RICHARD GLOVER:

Okay, there is a view though that the light hasn’t been turned on for everybody, that we’ve been making mistakes with our priorities. One common view for instance is that we’ve been putting too less emphasis on teacher education and far too much emphasis on small class sizes. Is this the thing, the sort of thing that you’ll be asking David Gonski to look at?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well these are the issues that David will certainly be, and his panel, will certainly be looking at. It’s designed to examine all of those issues and I know these have all been controversial issues. The debate about, there is a widespread contention you know – you talk about this a lot on your show I imagine Richard, and your listeners would talk about it – that we’ve pursued the class sizes agenda at the expense of teacher quality. And in fact, we’d be better off investing more in ensuring that teachers were better qualified, had better training and support to do a better job.

But again I don’t want, can I just be clear about this –

RICHARD GLOVER:

Alright.

PRIME MINISTER:

This is why we have David to look at this, because he flagged this in the first report back in 2011. I mean David’s big idea in 2011 was that there should be a schools resourcing standard, which is an amount of money per student. In the non-government sector obviously, adjusted for, you know, the school community’s ability to pay, and that should be consistent across the country.

Now under all of the deals that Bill Shorten and Julia Gillard did, 27 of them, it would have taken 150 years to get to a consistent standard. So what Labor had was not Gonski. You know, they talked about ‘giving a Gonski’. What they were providing was not a Gonski. What we’re doing, is within the decade, we will realise that objective of consistency and we will provide, as the Federal Government, 20 per cent of the school resources standard for government schools and 80 per cent for non-government schools.

RICHARD GLOVER:

It is more money, but it’s not as much money as Labor. Here’s Tanya Plibersek.

TANYA PLIBERSEK [Recording]:

What we get today is a smoke and mirrors, pea and thimble effort to hide the fact that instead of cutting $30 billion from schools over the decade, this Government will cut $22 billion from schools over the decade.

RICHARD GLOVER:

I mean this is the real story isn’t it? Tony Abbott in 2014 cuts all this money for education, you’re giving a bit of it back and claiming it as a victory?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well we are committing an additional $18.6 billion over the next decade.

RICHARD GLOVER:

Okay, less than Labor would commit under its full Gonski funding.

PRIME MINISTER:

But Labor never had – Richard, let’s be clear. You know, talk about smoke and mirrors. Labor never had the money. It was never funded. It was a mish-mash of inconsistent deals. States that spent more money were penalised. It was all over the place, and as Simon Birmingham has been detailing in the course of the day, a student, similarly situated in one state, would receive dramatically less Commonwealth funding than that student in another state. Let alone in another school system. So consistency and equity is the key. This is what we’re delivering. We’re delivering substantial additional funding. I mean this is record funding. In terms of Commonwealth funding for schools, over the decade, it will increase by 75 per cent.

RICHARD GLOVER:

Can I ask you about – because time is short of course – can I ask you about the 24 private schools? They will, it is said by Simon Birmingham today, actually lose money under this model, which is something that under Julia Gillard’s model, no one would lose out. It’s a great headline 24 private schools to lose money. But it’s not actually that many schools, is it? Is that?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well, out of over 9,000 schools no of course not.

RICHARD GLOVER:

No, but is that your way of making this, making an ideological point that you’re springing the rich for a bit, and really in way that’s a bit meaningless?

PRIME MINISTER:

No. Can I tell you, I’m not interested in ideology. This is not about ideology. This is not about politics. This is about our children and our grandchildren. And it’s about making sure that we fulfil that commitment to have a consistent level of funding from the Commonwealth across the country based on need.

RICHARD GLOVER:

Okay but what’s the point of sticking 24 private schools, when that number, as you say yourself, is such a small percentage of the 9,000.

PRIME MINISTER:

It is remarkable that that’s the point that you want to focus on, when there are over 9,000 schools that will be receiving more funding. But the fact is, because of all of the deals that Labor did, there were anomalies and some schools were receiving more money. Not that many, but a few, were receiving more money than under the equitable approach, they would be entitled to. Many others were receiving less, many others a lot less.

RICHARD GLOVER:

I suppose I’m focusing on that because I imagine if it was really a genuine needs-based system, as David Gonski always said, that more than 24 would probably have to tighten up their funding a bit.

PRIME MINISTER:

Well it is I can assure you, it is. This is the consistency of it, this is the formula. Of course the fact is it is a, you know, the way it works as you know, is you have the school resourcing standard, which is an amount of money per high school student and primary student. That’s fully funded for government schools and then for non-government schools it is adjusted by reference to the ability of that school’s community to contribute. So that is why you know a school in a very affluent area will get a lesser amount. But that’s part of the system now. It’s been part of the system for a very long time. What we’re doing is ensuring that it’s consistent, that its national and also Richard, that it’s understandable.

I mean part of the problem with the Labor model is that there were so many inconsistencies, so many deals. It was not what David Gonski recommended. David’s vision, as he confirmed today, as he confirmed today, was for a national, consistent level of funding which is needs-based. That’s what my Government is delivering.

RICHARD GLOVER:

Okay. There will be people who are cynical about this. The whole town, if you’re in Sydney, is full of posters and stickers saying: “I do give a Gonski”, attacking your Government over it and all that. He’s an old friend of yours, you’ve got him on board. That is a political masterstroke isn’t it? It basically undermines a slogan that was going to be used against you all the way up to the election.

PRIME MINISTER:

Well I’m proud to be supporting David Gonski’s vision of a consistent, needs-based approach to funding for schools. I share his passion for the transformative power of education and I look forward to the guidance he will give us as to how we can make sure that the massive increase in spending that we’re seeing in schools, is going to result in better outcomes for our children and grandchildren.

RICHARD GLOVER:

Okay but there will be an amusing moment for you, will it not, when David Gonski suggests some policies which are not in line with the Teacher’s Union, Teachers Federation polices and you find that they don’t give a Gonski as much as they thought?

PRIME MINISTER:

You’ve lost me there with all the Gonski’s. But I can tell you, he has got a big heart and a big brain and David understands that you’ve got to have consistent needs-based funding. We’re supporting that. That’s exactly what we’re doing. But what we also need to do is make sure that our kids and our grandkids get the maximum educational benefit from these big dollars that we’re spending on schools.

RICHARD GLOVER:

Okay. A Daisy for every child.

PRIME MINISTER:

(Laughter)

RICHARD GLOVER:

Just let me ask you finally, the announcement today that Sydney Airport Corp don’t want to take up their offer, their right to develop the Badgerys Creek Airport. The Government are going to do it instead. There will be lots of people thinking: “Well Sydney Airport Corporation, they’re not dopes, they must understand that in the end this is going to be not a commercial proposition. Why are the taxpayers funding what starts to look like bad debt?

PRIME MINISTER:

No, this is a very important project. It’s a very, very important project. We will build it. We’ve obviously done a lot of work on it and will have a lot more to say about it in the Budget.

RICHARD GLOVER:

Prime Minister thank you very much for your time.

PRIME MINISTER:

Thanks so much Richard.

[ENDS]

BELINDA VARISCHETTI:

Good afternoon Prime Minister.

PRIME MINISTER:

Good afternoon, great to be with you.

BELINDA VARISCHETTI:

Now the Government has been locked in a school funding dispute with the states who have been calling for the Commonwealth to stump up the full funding recommended under ‘Gonski 1’ if you like. How far does this announcement go to bring that dispute to an end?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well, this is delivering exactly the vision that David Gonski laid out in 2011, Belinda.

What David Gonski said, and his panel said, was that schools funding should be needs based and it should be consistent. And that is exactly what we’re delivering.

It’s not what Labor delivered, they had 27 different agreements. They were all conflicting. There was inconsistencies – students in one state, a student with the same needs in one state, would get dramatically different levels of Commonwealth funding in another state. And what we’re doing is bringing the all into one consistent system, so that we are actually realising, as David Gonski acknowledged today, we are realising his vision of school funding being equitable, being consistent and being needs based.

And it’s going to result in a substantial increase in Commonwealth Government funding for schools in Western Australia, which had been a good case of why the Labor, sort of, the Labor corruption of the Gonski idea – I mean Ken Boston, who was one of the members of the Gonski panel, described the deals that Bill Shorten and Julia Gillard did as having failed to deliver the consistency that David Gonski had proposed.

Now what we’ll see over this period of the next decade, we’ll see in Western Australia, funding for government schools will grow at an average of 6.8 per cent per student, per year, with Catholic and independent schools growing at 3.8 per cent and 4.5 per cent respectively. And what that is going to do is provide the support that will mean, in Western Australia, as everywhere else in Australia by 2027, the Commonwealth will be providing for government schools, 20 per cent of the schools resourcing standard, and for non-government schools, it will be 80 per cent of the schools resourcing standard.

BELINDA VARISCHETTI:

But Prime Minister, will any schools miss out on any of this funding?

PRIME MINISTER:

No school will miss out. There is a very small number of schools, none of which are in Western Australia I might add, which will have a net reduction over the ten years. The Education Minister estimates this to be around 24 independent schools. But this is a modest net reduction and that is because of all the conflicting deals that were done. But the overwhelming majority of schools, well over 9,000, will receive additional funding over this period.

The important thing is where you end up. In 2027, you will have, all schools will be receiving consistent, fair, needs-based funding from the Commonwealth.

BELINDA VARISCHETTI:

Deputy Opposition Leader and shadow education minister Tanya Plibersek has said the announcement is really just smoke and mirrors, an effort to hide the $22 billion in funding cuts from schools. Let’s just have a listen to what she said.

TANYA PLIBERSEK [Recording]:

It is extraordinary that after years of waiting, after months of uncertainty, after states and territories have been pleading with the federal government for certainty, after Catholic and independent schools have said they need certainty for next year, what we get today is a smoke and mirrors, pea-and-thimble effort to hide the fact that instead of cutting $30 billion from schools over the decade, this Government will cut $22 billion from schools over the decade.

But the truth is, Labor laid out a comprehensive school reform agenda when we were in office. It was trashed by Christopher Pyne. That school reform agenda included things like more autonomy for principals, more decisions at a school level about how to best spend the extra funding that came with needs-based funding. All the things we know make a difference in classrooms.

I can say to Mr Gonski that the first place he should look is the school reform agenda that Labor committed to, that Christopher Pyne junked when he was the Education Minister.

BELINDA VARISCHETTI:

The Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull with you on ABC Radio Perth this afternoon talking through the Government’s education school review and the funding boost which was announced today.

Prime Minister, Tanya Plibersek also says that the Government abandoned the funding package originally recommended by Mr Gonski, saying it is laughable and the schools will be $22 billion worse off under the Coalition than under Labor. What do you say to that?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well what I say is that she is talking about money that the Labor Party promised in a shambolic set of 27 agreements, all of them inconsistent – one of the biggest losers being Western Australia, as Western Australians would well understand – and this was a set of arrangements which did not reflect David Gonski’s vision.

I mean, David Gonski was standing there with me today and he acknowledged that what we are doing is fulfilling his vision and it is one that makes a lot of sense because-

BELINDA VARISCHETTI:

So why is it necessary to have a second review? Gonski mark 2?

PRIME MINISTER:

If you let me finish I’ll just explain.

David’s vision was that all schools, all students should get Commonwealth funding on a needs basis – understand that? And it has got to be fairly allocated and consistently allocated. That’s what we are doing. There is no question about that.

Gonski 2.0 is not about funding. It is about ensuring that we pursue and achieve educational excellence in Australian schools.

You see, what we’ve seen in recent years is that while we have been spending more money on schools – the federal government has been spending a lot more money on schools, state governments have been spending more money as well, parents have been spending more money – our performance relative to other countries has been going backwards, particularly in reading and mathematics.

And what we need to do is, we owe it to our kids and our grandkids to ensure that we get a better result from better outcomes from our investment in schools.

And so that is what David Gonski is looking at. Gonski 2.0 is the next stage.

We believe we have the funding right. We have delivered on the right level of funding. It is consistent with the schooling resource standard that David Gonski set out in 2011.

The Commonwealth, as you know, is the majority government funder of the non-government sector and the states are the majority funder of the state sector. So we’ve got the ratios right.

We are going, for state schools, government schools, Belinda, we’re going from currently funding on average 17 per cent, we are going up to 20 per cent. For non-government schools we are currently around 77 per cent, we are going up to 80 per cent. So it is very significant increases in support.

But now the next question, and this is what parents, this is what parents are focused on, and grandparents are focused on is why aren’t we getting better outcomes from the schools, from our massive investment in schools?

David Gonski foreshadowed this in his report, back in 2011, that this was the next step and that’s what we are asking him to do now.

BELINDA VARISCHETTI:

And when will that be handed down?

PRIME MINISTER:

That’s going to be delivered to us by the end of the year. I expect this will be, this is going to be a very lively discussion. This is what we should now be focused on. I believe that time has come to end the school funding wars. We are committing a record amount of money to school funding. We are seeing the federal government’s commitment to schools increasing by 75 per cent over the decade to come. That’s a massive increase.

So the money has been committed and the issue now is to ensure that we get the value out of that investment in terms of great outcomes, great schools, great teachers, great results for our children and grandchildren.

BELINDA VARISCHETTI:

On ABC Radio Perth – the Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull with you this afternoon.

And Mr Turnbull, this announcement comes hot on the heels of a major announcement about higher education funding which was made last night by the Minister, announcing the Government would introduce an efficiency dividend which will effectively mean a $2.8 billion funding cut for universities. Did you pay for your university education?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well, no I didn’t. I am probably a bit older than you, a lot older than you I expect and I went to university before HECS. So I did not pay fees to go to university.

BELINDA VARISCHETTI:

So how do you balance that with the announcement today then? Taking away the funding cut from universities with today’s announcement?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well look the bottom line is that it’s been established and accepted for a very long time that university students should contribute to the cost of their university education. I mean we all, HECS was introduced originally under the Hawke government I recall, so this has been around for a very long time. And this is about maintaining the sustainability of the higher education system.

Now, over the last five years the funding for universities on a per student basis has increased by about 15 per cent, and the cost for educating students at universities has increased by about 9.5 per cent. So there is scope for the universities to return some of that, by way of efficiency dividends, to return some of that to the taxpayer and I believe that there is also the opportunity for students to make a larger contribution.

But it is a modest increase in the contribution and it is very measured and it is part of ensuring that we have a sustainable higher education system that is fair.

BELINDA VARISCHETTI:

And I can’t let you go today without raising the Government’s call for the Productivity Commission to review how the GST is distributed – a hot topic here in Western Australia. Under the Grants Commission Formula WA in 2017-18 will get only 34 per cent of the average national per capita distribution of the GST. Are you confident this review will see an increase to Western Australia’s share?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well I’m confident that the Productivity Commission will do a very thorough examination of the way in which the Commonwealth Grants Commission’s formula impacts on productivity right across the country.

BELINDA VARISCHETTI:

Do you think WA deserves more than that 34 per cent?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well as you know I have said in the past and I am the first Prime Minister to have done so, that plainly when Western Australians see they’re getting on a per capita basis 30 per cent, or a little bit more now, of the GST you can entirely understand why they feel that is unfair.

BELINDA VARISCHETTI:

So it’s unfair?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well you can entirely understand the point of view of Western Australians. But what we need to do is to ensure that the Grants Commission system works fairly and effectively and that it enhances productivity. That is the goal. So we are certainly looking at that, or the Productivity Commission will be looking at that.

But I do understand very keenly how big an issue this is in Western Australia – I can assure you.

All of my Western Australian colleagues have made that point to me as have many, many other Western Australians so I understand it keenly and that’s why I presented last year a way of resolving the issue. But I think we need to get the benefit of the Productivity Commission – with the benefit of their work I should say.

Part of the problem with the Commonwealth Grants Commission if I may say so, is that nobody really understands how their formula works. It’s very much a black box in that sense and I think it’s important that that be unpacked and the Productivity Commission is the right agency – you know, that’s the top economic think tank of the Government and that’s the right agency to do that.

BELINDA VARISCHETTI:

Malcolm Turnbull, thank you for talking to us on ABC Radio Perth this afternoon.

PRIME MINISTER:

Thank you so much.

[ENDS]